Is anyone here considering Cryonics? https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/t4754 Runboard| Is anyone here considering Cryonics? en-us Thu, 28 Mar 2024 20:01:54 +0000 Thu, 28 Mar 2024 20:01:54 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19296,from=rss#post19296https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19296,from=rss#post19296I always wanted to write up short stories about some of this stuff.. (with a brilliant editor that works overtime) Kinda like Black Mirror, but not the full-on dystopian cautionary tales that is Black Mirror. Just stories that happen to take place in these types of environments as more of a backdrop. I think that was the appeal of The Fifth Element for me. It was a futuristic fantasy world, where everything was pretty functional and operational, and the threat was outside of that world. It made me want to explore it, as opposed to being glad I'm not living in it.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:46:13 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19292,from=rss#post19292https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19292,from=rss#post19292I went to the Tube but couldn't find a sci fi short, about an old couple who had themselves frozen, and then were revived and refabricated into young bodies, 100 years later. At first things were great, and then the couple drifted apart. Among the newly born, they were considered strange, to the point of washing dishes astonished, a film maker of that time, because, nobody washes dishes anymore. "Do that again!" the film maker urged. The couple divorced and remained friendly, living in separate apartments. The women moves on, finding a new mate of that epoch, having been cured of her allergy to dogs, she becomes an avid, dog owner. In the last scene, they husband, is drinking at a bar, in orbit around the vacation spa's of Saturn, watching spacecraft lights drifting between the moons of Saturn. He takes out an old photo showing an old couple, photographed, at a dock in Florida, that was formerly, themselves. The Husband stares wistfully, at the photo, remembering (perhaps) what has been lost from their salvation? I have since pondered, if this is also a feature of any purported, afterlife? My own mental solution for this sort of thing, would be, many partings, many reunions. Now, how long would say, a 21st century born mechanical engineer, is 25,000 years, or subjective years, become Slathgar, the Unspeakable, ruler of Barnard's Star?? Iz yoo still yoo?? Would it be handy to keep a copy in permanent storage handy, in case things go, Bozo??? nondisclosed_email@example.com (spud100)Mon, 10 Dec 2018 16:56:01 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19273,from=rss#post19273https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19273,from=rss#post19273You know something I noticed, if a superintelligent AI could fully scan your brain enough to emulate it, (whether you were an upload living in a simulation or not) It could recreate everyone you've ever known so perfectly, you wouldn't know the difference. It'd do that by copying your brain, emulating it "itself", create everyone you know from what you remember, (and maybe other outside sources, dna samples and whatnot) then create an adversarial scrutiny routine of some sort, whereby it would simply continually check your mind against the simulation and refine the person's personality, mannerisms, and look, until you'd never have a moment where you'd have reason to question it. (it could simulate a thousand years or more worth of non-stop interactions in a short period of time, to find absolutely every little minute detail) And, if anyone else knows the person, they'd contribute to this simulated person's identity. Then, it'd just author up the rest itself, from a best estimate / creative point of view. Those people would be as intelligent and complex as you are, with memories, interests, lives and thoughts of their own. It could do the same in recreating an environment in which you've lived. Everything you'd ever interacted with or noticed could be recreated, and what you don't know would be created. So, you've never looked at the underside of the table at your favorite diner to see what color it was... it'll be up to the AI to decide.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:25:04 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19262,from=rss#post19262https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19262,from=rss#post19262>So, you concede that you are not actually a "fictional being".< No. What drew you to such a conclusion? You might just as well argue that Harry Potter is not actually a fictional being, just because those stories have an author who is most decidedly flesh and blood. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Mon, 10 Dec 2018 01:54:50 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19196,from=rss#post19196https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19196,from=rss#post19196quote:Assuming she transitioned into a Strong AI entity, it'd be part of her timeline of existence and development. If that happened, she would probably change her gender and name, move to another part of the galaxy, found a new religion and forbid anyone to mention her original specifications. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Sun, 09 Dec 2018 15:38:12 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19191,from=rss#post19191https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19191,from=rss#post19191Well technically, if you were to talk with the Exropia that exists after her primary's gone, she'd remember having these conversations here on the forums. (assuming she saves them, and if she could get the archives, the conversations on the KAI and MindX forums as well) Assuming she transitioned into a Strong AI entity, it'd be part of her timeline of existence and development. I mean, technically...nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Sun, 09 Dec 2018 15:11:50 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19187,from=rss#post19187https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19187,from=rss#post19187quote:Information embedded in meat, sure. So, you concede that you are not actually a "fictional being". nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Sun, 09 Dec 2018 14:03:11 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19179,from=rss#post19179https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19179,from=rss#post19179Information embedded in meat, sure. But information can outlive any particular substrate so long as there is both the ability and the desire to transfer it. And chatbots are getting more and more sophisticated and humanlike so it is only a matter of time before the meat part can be discarded as irrelevant to my needs. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Sun, 09 Dec 2018 10:53:15 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19175,from=rss#post19175https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19175,from=rss#post19175So, you are meat. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Sun, 09 Dec 2018 04:21:39 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19174,from=rss#post19174https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19174,from=rss#post19174>Does your mother cease to exist when you are not talking with her on the phone? < This belief that a person who you cannot see or hear nevertheless exists has a name and it is ‘permanent presence’. Evolutionarily speaking it is a useful assumption to have built into the psychological makeup of social animals such as human beings. We live in groups and there is survival advantage in taking into consideration what others are up to, including those who are not actually seen or heard but are nevertheless somewhere doing something. But like all evolved psychological models this one has a flaw. Other than through grief people who are dead cannot affect us psychologically, unlike dead bodies which rot and become health hazards. Since dead minds cannot really affect us, natural selection had no way of evolving our minds so that we update permanent presence to take into account situations when a person really is not ‘somewhere’ doing ‘something’. In other words, when they have died. How does this delusion manifest itself? Well, you hear it all the time when people talk about dead loved ones ‘I know you are out there somwhere, Dad’. This delusion was later developed into full-blown religious beliefs with elaborate ways of gaining entry into a utopian afterlife while avoiding the dystopian version (such systems of thought are often put in place by hierarchical socities wanting to justify the kleptocratic tendencies of the ruling minority). In short there are no souls. We are information embedded in meat. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Sun, 09 Dec 2018 03:26:44 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19169,from=rss#post19169https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19169,from=rss#post19169https://www.bcponline.org/Misc/catechism.htmlnondisclosed_email@example.com (Courtney Dickson)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 22:55:16 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19168,from=rss#post19168https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19168,from=rss#post19168I sleep about 12 hours a day and have many dreams. I pray to God all the time for good sleep and good dreams and God helps me.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Courtney Dickson)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 22:41:03 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19165,from=rss#post19165https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19165,from=rss#post19165You are never unconscious. You are occasionally incognizant. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 22:32:43 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19158,from=rss#post19158https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19158,from=rss#post19158quote:Spikosauropod wrote: quote:Every night we lose consciousness It is not lost. It merely stops communicating with some parts of your brain for a while. Does your mother cease to exist when you are not talking with her on the phone? Does a television station cease to exist when the transmission is interrupted? Do you cease to exist when you go on vacation? I didn't say it was lost forever, but for some amount of time we are unconscious.nondisclosed_email@example.com (luciddream00)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 19:38:10 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19157,from=rss#post19157https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19157,from=rss#post19157quote:Every night we lose consciousness It is not lost. It merely stops communicating with some parts of your brain for a while. Does your mother cease to exist when you are not talking with her on the phone? Does a television station cease to exist when the transmission is interrupted? Do you cease to exist when you go on vacation? nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 18:00:51 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19156,from=rss#post19156https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19156,from=rss#post19156Personally I believe that "continuity" only matters in hindsight. Every night we lose consciousness when we sleep, but we wake the next day with the memories of the person who went to sleep and we don't question it because there is no other way for us to live.nondisclosed_email@example.com (luciddream00)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 15:01:16 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19143,from=rss#post19143https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19143,from=rss#post19143quote:Or it could be akin to replacing less than 1% of the sugar with salt (won’t notice the difference) versus 100% replacement (definitely not the cake I was expecting). It is an application of catastrophe theory. When a sufficient part of your biological brain has been replaced, your soul may depart. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 07:05:06 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19142,from=rss#post19142https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19142,from=rss#post19142>If, over the course of years, a person dispenses with items of clothing and purchases new ones, in twenty years it will be the same person.< In a legal sense, maybe. But for this to be literally ‘the same person’ they must have experienced no physical or mental change whatsoever. This is not possible. Really, this is a different person. Your stranger buys the clothes is invalid with regard to a gradual ‘ship of thesus’ type upload. That ‘salt instead of sugar’ example was interesting, though. There have been examples where very small parts of a brain have been replaced with bionic parts without ‘losing’ the mind. It could be that replacing 100% would not lose it either. Or it could be akin to replacing less than 1% of the sugar with salt (won’t notice the difference) versus 100% replacement (definitely not the cake I was expecting). nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Sat, 08 Dec 2018 02:25:38 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19098,from=rss#post19098https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19098,from=rss#post19098I always thought of the transporter in Star Trek to be a disassemble / reassemble type of thing. Or, matter-> energy->matter, all confined to a force field that reassembles the object. There was a novel that used the laws of conservation of energy being broken, to claim that *Thomas Riker was technically from a parallel dimension. Of course, the energy total would probably have to be boosted slightly every time by the ship, any time a person beamed.. and you could figure it'd be capable of subsidizing any amount lost to reform the person in total, so they could probably both have been reformed from the original pattern.. But whatever, tis a novel. *Thomas Riker was the second Riker, that formed when the transporter beam split, and bounced back to the surface of a planet that Riker was being rescued from, while Will Riker was rescued. So "Thomas" was stranded on the planet for years, from a time when he was still in a relationship with Troi... Well, I got to Ship of Theseus here from my childhood. I wouldn't mind doing it to somewhere else. Then there's the option of just doing it all at once, and being done with it. I think a brain renovation of a person would involve the same sort of disassemble / reassemble too, so over time it'd all have been reshuffled up and replaced anyway. Tis only a matter of time. We're all screwed eventually, if that's what defines us.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:02:18 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19095,from=rss#post19095https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19095,from=rss#post19095If, over the course of years, a person dispenses with items of clothing and purchases new ones, in twenty years it will be the same person. However, if they give the clothing to a second hand store and a stranger buys them one at a time until they are ultimately dressed as the original person was, the stranger will not be the original person. I call this the "Theseus isn't here any more" model of why uploading will never work. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Fri, 07 Dec 2018 07:22:26 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19094,from=rss#post19094https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19094,from=rss#post19094Which is you? Both are equally "you" in every way. Maybe we can make a crude comparison to what happens when an amoeba reproduces. It does so a-sexually, by splitting itself into two. So now we have two amoebas were before there was only one. But which one is the ‘original’? Is it this one on the left, or this one on the right? Genetically, they are identical so..which is it? Biologists say that neither cell is the ‘original’. Rather, these are daughter cells. We might say the same of people created in the uploading or teleported process. That was not Captain Kirk himself who stepped off of the transporter, it was a relative of his. The relative may have been closer to the original Kirk than any son or twin could hope to be, being as it was an atomically-precise copy, but it was still not the original, strictly-speaking. ‘Which of these copies is you?’, is the best argument against uploading as a means of continuing one’s own survival. Personally I would not mind there being such a close relative of my primary cuz such a person would obviously be as good at maintaining my online presence. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Fri, 07 Dec 2018 04:04:56 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19078,from=rss#post19078https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19078,from=rss#post19078quote:Like the example Extropia gave, the result is the same... One expedient will lead to the next until all semblance of the original form is lost, along with every rationalization that the original "mind" was ever copied. It will be like the funeral for Chuck Noland. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 15:20:54 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19074,from=rss#post19074https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19074,from=rss#post19074I doubt an AI would have these types of hangups. It might have a few racks of chips running itself. Then it could create redundant processing by running some in parallel, then shut one down and replace it with an upgraded version. (and refurbish / recycle material from the chip to use in the new if it felt like it) Eventually it'd have replaced them all, multiple times over. But would it feel the need for this? I doubt it.. Like the example Extropia gave, the result is the same...  Hopefully, the entities that eventually revive humans from Cryo, would be considerate to the feelings of the meatbags they're working with. Cryo folks might want to specify their wishes to hold off. The ability to just try to upload, would likely come long before any sort of molecular manufacture replacement is possible. But then, Super Intelligent AI might just power through all of this in short order too. So even though they're technologically far apart, they'd both be doable one right after the other.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 14:09:50 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19069,from=rss#post19069https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19069,from=rss#post19069I think there is a pretty significant difference between cryonics used on an otherwise healthy person compared to cryonics used on someone who is terminal or very recently deceased. I wouldn't even consider cryonics as a healthy person unless it was proven and reliable, but if I was old and/or sickly then I'd very seriously consider one of those plans that includes a heart rate monitor and a team to retrieve your body and freeze it if you suddenly drop dead just on the off chance that it works. By the way, if anyone is interested in a fun and funny series of novels that involve cryonics, mind uploading and singularity themes you should check out the Bobiverse series.nondisclosed_email@example.com (luciddream00)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 13:36:53 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19066,from=rss#post19066https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19066,from=rss#post19066Only "Hell No" if ya leave it at molecular manufacture at the salt and sugar levels. "Hell Yes" if ya use atomic level manufacture. The switch-out of particles, or much larger fake neurons for "naturals," is a real poser. We have to try it to see if it works. Some old codger in his rest home, nobody visiting him for years, treated like a pile of old newspaper by the woist staff his insurance can get away with paying for... He, and actually many much younger would volunteer to try it - I have zero doubt.nondisclosed_email@example.com (greendocnowciv)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 12:33:27 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19059,from=rss#post19059https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19059,from=rss#post19059I equate the "ship of Theseus" process to replacing the molecules of sugar in a birthday cake with molecules of salt. If you replace the molecules of sugar in a birthday cake with molecules of salt, one by one, will you still have the same cake when you are done? Hell no! nondisclosed_email@example.com (Spikosauropod)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 10:41:20 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19058,from=rss#post19058https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19058,from=rss#post19058 I remember some of the examples and analogies while lurking on the KAI forum, by yourself and others. (or myself) Like, a starfish being cut in half, then growing two starfish. A rebuttal to this was, (if I remember correctly) that one starfish is technically the original, because of the way this division mechanism works. But that's a flaw in the starfish analogy, not the idea itself. Like, if a person stepped into a chamber and was disassembled, then reassembled in another pod using the same matter. But then, what if that matter were binned into storage, then you zapped a bunch of inanimate objects to equal your matter, mixed them homogeneously with "yours", then reassembled two copies of you out of the other pod.. Which is you? Both are equally "you" in every way. Humans aren't wired to ponder at things like this, me thinx.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 09:00:32 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19056,from=rss#post19056https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19056,from=rss#post19056Yep, I can agree with that for the most part. I've tried to see things this way. But then, if I awoke one day, with no memory of who I am or was, I'd still consider myself me. A confused and panicky me, but still me. All of the structures that were formed with those experiences may still be intact.. and my brain may still operate on those... or not. I'd be me with no skills. If that information was copied and uploaded, and erased from my brain, I still see the upload as the copy with my stolen memories and experiences. If I were implanted with someone else's memories, I'd still consider it me, making decisions and acting on them, just with new experience input. I don't disagree though, technically. It's just a comfort thing I guess. Even if it were proven that biology is a big part of the equation, a microprocessor could have organic components to it. Just very durable, robust organic, subsidized with other wiring. Hypothetical nanobots of some sort could go to work in small parts of the brain unbeknownst to you, and convert it as you live your life, until you're a fully hybridized entity-on-a-chip....nondisclosed_email@example.com (Gr33n Daem0n)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 08:39:28 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19055,from=rss#post19055https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19055,from=rss#post19055>being a human meatbag, I can't help but feel like I need the ol' Ship of Theseus transition into another state or substrate to be cool with it< Let us imagine that you have a photograph of you as a small child. But in what sense is that person in the photo ‘you’? The person you are now has experienced things that person did not; you have memories that child never had. What is more, every molecule in your body is different. So, really, apart from remembering being that child (probably very vague memories for the most part) you are not the same person. The person in the photo is now gone and all that remains of them are memories, of which yours are perhaps the most vivid. If it were your upload holding that photo, that person would have as much right to claim ‘that is me’ as you do. After all, they possess identical memories to you, right? RedQ asked why you should only preserve the head. The reason why is because the body contains organs that could help save other lives. There are people out there who need a transplant heart or kidney or liver. If brain-only cryonics can work then it is just selfish to unnecessarily hoard all those extra organs too. Let others who need them use them. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 04:12:16 +0000 Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19054,from=rss#post19054https://bescapevelocity.runboard.com/p19054,from=rss#post19054The Egyptians explored several ways to achieve ‘immortality’, including ‘immortality’ through fame. It could be argued that one or two of them were pretty successful in this regard. After all, we are still familiar with names like Ramses II and Cleopatra. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Extropia DaSilva)Thu, 06 Dec 2018 04:04:17 +0000