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Spikosauropod Profile
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Parliamentarian

Registered: 06-2007
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


quote:

They are not just different species because, unlike animals the different Races of Star Trek clearly have language and sophisticated cultures of their own.


I am not sure you get what I mean. These are the taxonomic classifications:

Image

For there to be a way to classify creatures from different planets, there would have to be a classification above domain. Hence: Planet, Domain, Kingdom, Phylum.... Race is nowhere on the chart. It is arguably the same as subspecies, found on other charts, but I doubt it even qualifies for that:

Image

Doc, this is the funniest example of "racism" I am aware of. It actually involves no racism whatsoever. It is really just one young man's inability to place himself outside of his perceived sphere. Curiously, many people who see it have the same limitation. The people who arranged this field trip (assuming it ever actually took place) were apparently so unconscious of race that it did not occur to them that a young black man should not participate. It would actually have been racist for them to exclude him:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PToqVW4n86U

2/21/2021, 12:51 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
greendocnowciv Profile
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Registered: 11-2017
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


I've seen that before - it might have been back on KAI! The young man tells the story well.

Nothing actually bad about it, as far as I can see, at all.

The kid subjectively felt offended. I'd urge the young man to "toughen up." Life gets lots harder than that.



Last edited by greendocnowciv, 2/22/2021, 11:36 am
2/21/2021, 8:35 pm Link to this post PM greendocnowciv Blog
 
Spikosauropod Profile
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Parliamentarian

Registered: 06-2007
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


It used to be easy to find listings for field trips where students can pick cotton. Now, when it is searched, the only thing that comes up are declarations of racism.

I wonder if it will eventually be considered racist to wear cotton? After all, how can we wear a fabric around that was once picked by black slaves? No more comfy underwear!

I suppose that would be inconvenient for the wrong people. The dictate could be that only black people can wear cotton because they have 'earned the right'. White people have to wear polyester. Someone would buy into it. Every white person would suddenly be self-conscious about wearing cotton. Way to divide!
2/21/2021, 10:56 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
Extropia DaSilva Profile
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


>Dungeons and Dragons and Star Trek aren't Racist just because they all have races as part of their plots.<

Yeah, but the point is that they don’t just have different races as part of their plots, but they also have different races who conform to stereotypes, much more so than is really the case in real life. In the expository dialogue that begins the film version of Lord of the Rings, Galadriel tells of the rings that were forged by Sauron. “Nine rings were gifted to the Race of Men, who above all else desire power”. She makes no attempt to distinguish between those humans who are power hungry and those who are not, because in the fictionalised world of Middle Earth (which D+D is based on) if you are of the Race of Men, then you are by definition power-hungry. Similarly, there’s no such thing as a good Orc. All orcs are bad, it’s simply not in their nature to be pleasant.

The same is true with Star Trek. If you have met one Ferengi, you have pretty much met them all. Same with all the other races. Ok you might get this or that individual who is a bit different (Warf is not like other Klingons) but these tend to be one individual amongst an entire race who really do conform to their stereotype. One or two episodes devoted to exploring issues of race does not add up to a denial that Star Trek is a fundamentally Racist show. It might not be Racist in recognisably realworld way. Nobody cares that the commander of Deep Space Nine is Black or Sulu of the Enterprise was Asian, because such discriminatory markers don’t exist in this universe. But other forms of discrimination do exist. Star Trek’s races are both treated with, and for the most part conform to, prejudices. Racism is at the very heart of the show, just as it is at the heart of LOTR and probably D+D too.

Last edited by Extropia DaSilva, 2/22/2021, 5:46 am
2/22/2021, 5:38 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 
Spikosauropod Profile
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Parliamentarian

Registered: 06-2007
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


My brother, who is not a Star Trek fan, upon seeing an episode with Ferengi, snickered and said, "Jews!" So, yes, the observation Ex has made is correct. In Star Trek TOS, Klingons seemed to be patterned after soviet communists. Now, they seem to be patterned after a black stereotype. Curiously, I know blacks who really idolize Klingons. The stereotype seems to appeal to them. Bajorans are obviously Palestinians. But that requires the ability to abstract, and the woke haven't this talent. They are more likely to go after a reality TV host who says that we should show "grace" to someone who at one time did not understand that something they were doing could later be interpreted as racist.
2/22/2021, 11:45 am Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
spud100 Profile
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


Projecting is fun. If you can find a comment from a writer from Trek indicatiing "it was insprired from..." they there is a point to be listened to.

The academic and others simply want to control the rest of us. Its like the Coke thing. Try to be less white, or as Hollywood types, bemoaned, Too Jewish.

My suspcion is that action will arise against say. Coke when the economy dives and peopple reduce their purchases of cola products out of necessity. Then wokeness will go to the back of the bus, over green ness. $.

The same corporations that funded The Steal, in 2020 will be looking to dethrone Joe or Kamala in order to get their profits back, as they did with supporting JoeMala to get their China cash back.
2/22/2021, 12:00 pm Link to this post PM spud100 Blog
 
Spikosauropod Profile
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Parliamentarian

Registered: 06-2007
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


The thing to remember about all of this is that it is a divide and conquer strategy. Wokeness is not about oppression or reverse discrimination. It is about getting Americans to hate and distrust each other so that they are easier to control. I noticed that the incident with Chris Harrison made me 10% more racist. Then, I snapped out of it and said, "Wait a minute! That is the whole point. They are tricking me!"

I must remind everyone of the sacred comic book:

Image
https://www.flickr.com/photos/57391637@N05/5286552558/in/set-72157625660722718/
2/22/2021, 12:20 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
greendocnowciv Profile
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


Ascribing some clear aspect of character broadly to whole group in a work of fiction is not at all necessarily racist. It's simply a long accepted writing style. An extreme case of this, where the plot is portrayed as mostly current real-life, yet portraying very exaggerated character traits in the hero, heroine, the anti-hero, the villain (s)., etc, is something Ayn Rand was famous for.

It appealed, and still appeals, to many millions of readers. Her books have sold amazingly well, but are also disregarded by many critics due to that same "exaggerated character portrayal."

Unless some broadly ascribed character traits are written about with the obvious intent to smear some race or another, it's not racist.

Worst of all is how you go from accepting that, OK, it's not racist, to meandering about and ending up with it is racist, pretty much because ya feel that way.

I mean, look at how, in this sentence of yours, you start by describing parts of the fiction in question, but then end with implying that I or any defender of it has to prove it innocent! You explain that not enough proof of innocence has been given:

"...not add up to a denial that Star Trek is a fundamentally Racist show."

Well - OK, innocence of racism has not been offered. But that dunna matter! Innocent until shown guilty remember?

And - the idea that pointing out that humanity can be generally seen as power hungry is very arguably true, broadly. Even while accepting that, with some of us, the urge is truly slight - having to be really searched for.

The term "power hungry" can be translated as having a systematic hierarchal aspect of our "social mind." Meaning that our minds, based on our brain-templates, have hierarchal social formats applied, and we tend to work out our places in them, which can be seen as a dance about how power is shared out - how much each person has.

As to the Klingons and Orcs, that's simply a description of the culture in the case of the Klingons, and fantasy ascription of evil in the case of Tolkien. The Tolkien case is so clearly fantasy ascription of "living evil" that I think you're simply accepting the modern lefty-smear of calling stuff racist when you see it there, Extie.

In the case of the Klingons, the writers of various episodes involving Klingons have developed their culture with bits and pieces of various warrior-cultures out of actual history being used - as so, so many sci fi and fantasy writers have done over the decades.

It's no more racist to depict Klingon culture violent and warlike than it is to depict the old Mongol empire that way, before later generations of rulers changed it such that it morphed into a still violent one in terms of war and rule of conquered countries outside of China.

A few generations after Genghis, the rulers were much more controlled and less violent in their own steppe-settlements, and in the Imperial Chinese cities they ended up living in, as they consolidated themselves more and more as a ruling dynasty.

2/22/2021, 12:23 pm Link to this post PM greendocnowciv Blog
 
Extropia DaSilva Profile
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


Greendoc forgets the crucial feature that distinguishes the D+D or Star Trek Universe, from ours.

As I said, our universe is one in which there is, so far as we know, only one Race- the Human Race. Every intelligent, communicative, technological being we know of is a part of this single race. We know of no others. Whether you are a Jew, or a Christian, Black or White, no matter what cultural label you care to attach to somebody, they, we, all of us, are part of one family. We are humans.

But, in the fictional universes of D+D or Star Trek, the humans are not the only Race. Furthermore, the many other Races are Races whose stereotypes are far more innate than anything you might truthfully attribute to human beings. Saying a Ferengi pursues money is not like saying “whites are all Prvileged’ or ‘blacks have all got great rhythm’, prejudices that fall apart when compared to the diversity of such people. it’s more like saying “Spiders spin silk” or ‘Fish breathe through gills”. In other words, basic facts about that sort of creature.

In other words, in the fictional universe of D+D or Star Trek, Racism is real because there really are many Races, and they really do conform to stereotypes, whereas in the real world Racism is a fiction because we are not separated Races, but one Race, and we don’t conform to crude stereotypes unless forced to.

2/23/2021, 7:18 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 
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Re: Stanford prof: ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ is racist


Here’s another way to think about it.

If you were to take a Mongol baby, or a Muslim baby, and raise it in a different human culture, would you have a Mongol adult, or a Muslim adult? No, you would not. Instead you would have an adult assimilated into whatever culture they had been brought up in. This is because there really is no such thing as a Mongol child, or a Muslim child. There are only children of Mongol parentage or children of Muslim families.

Now, what if you were to raise a wolf puppy as a dog. Would that puppy grow up believing it was a dog? Well, this experiment has actually been conducted. A wolf puppy grows up to be an adult wolf, regardless of whether it’s raised by other wolves or by humans who treat it like a dog. This is because there really is such a thing as a wolf puppy. The only way to turn wolves into dogs is through generations of selective breeding.

Similarly, if you were to try and raise a baby dwarf, or Orc, or Ferenghi or Klingon in human homes, you would not have human adults, but adult dwarves, Orcs, Ferenghi, Klingons. When dwarves are described as being ‘great miners’ this is not meant in the sense of people who happen to have grown up in mining communities and would have followed different professions if raised in alternative communities; they are by their nature miners, just as wolves by their nature have wolflike aspects.

I never said Star Trek is not Racist; I said it was not Racist in a recognisably Real World Way. If it were, then the Federation would be prejudiced against certain humans. Commander Cisco would face obstacles every step of the way on account of the colour of his skin; Checkov would find his Russian accent barred him from the bridge of a starship cuz those Ruskies all love their vodka and you wouldn’t trust a drunk Commie with photon torpedoes and warp drives.

But Star Trek and D+D ARE racist universes because in these universes there are many different Races who really do tend to conform to Type. If you are Racist in real life you are making a simple mistake, whereas if you are Racist in those fictional universes you are being truthful. There is such a thing as your typical Dwarf, or your typical Kardashian.

2/23/2021, 8:57 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 


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