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Re: Elon Musk’s Neuralink: Ready for Brain Surgery


quote:

Wait! we are still talking about penile enhancements, right?


No, the other organ people compare for size. I guess they never saw the "Je Souhaite" episode of X-Files.

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Spikosaur, of the Uncircumcised Umbrella, Prophet to The Collectors, OA, RMC

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7/17/2019, 10:06 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
Extropia DaSilva Profile
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Re: Elon Musk’s Neuralink: Ready for Brain Surgery


“You didn’t specify water!”.

Anyway, back to the topic... If I were to just read out a medical journal, I don’t think it would be right to say I have medical expertise. I am, after all, just parroting the words that are in front of me.

But let’s suppose I have no visible aid telling me what to say. What if, instead, I have a chip that is somehow feeding that information from the Web to the language centres or whatever relevant parts of my brain. The information comes in, and I speak fluent medical jargon.

I don’t see how that is really any different to my merely parroting words from a medical journal. Either case seems like more like me pretending to know what I am talking about rather than actually having expertise.

When you play a racing driver videogame, those games don’t provide a proper racing simulation. This is not just because it’s too computationally intensive for home PCs and consoles. It’s because ordinary people who have not undergone the required training just cannot drive Formula One cars, let alone perform at the level required in a race.

So what happens is, the game includes loads of driver assistance all so you can feel as though you were driving like a professional formula one or Rally driver.

Now let’s think about that moment in The Matrix where our heros download some skill. You know, like that ‘I know Kung Fu’ moment where Neo goes from knowing no martial arts whatsoever, to fighting like he’s Jet Li. Did HE know Kung Fu, or was it rather that a software program of martial arts moves was making his body perform the actions while making him believe it was he who was controlling his avatar? I would argue that it is the latter. Neo does not really know Kung Fu, anymore than a videogame player knows how to drive a Formula One car. It’s all just pretend.

So it seems to me that even if somebody did have a neuralink and they were speaking with authority about a subject or demonstrating great skill, that we should not necessarily conclude that individual actually has expertise. It could just be a form of pretence.





Last edited by Extropia DaSilva, 7/18/2019, 3:09 am
7/18/2019, 3:05 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 
greendocnowciv Profile
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Re: Elon Musk’s Neuralink: Ready for Brain Surgery


Downloading data may not include the aspect of incorporating into our overall memories, but rather mean incorporating into our minds in simply one aspect of our memories. Which is what the example of "OK, then I'll be able to read out the words as if I read them" would fit.

Or - it will include that the data has been incorporated into our brains in a "complete" fashion. Such that our minds can process it, incorporating it into the mind just as if we had "larned it the old-fashioned way."

I'm sure that's what many of the researches aiming at some kind of "data downloading to human brains" are trying to accomplish.

7/18/2019, 10:00 am Link to this post PM greendocnowciv Blog
 
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Re: Elon Musk’s Neuralink: Ready for Brain Surgery


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Now let’s think about that moment in The Matrix where our heros download some skill. You know, like that ‘I know Kung Fu’ moment where Neo goes from knowing no martial arts whatsoever, to fighting like he’s Jet Li


There is an even deeper implication to this.

I actually do not know if it will eventually be possible to download knowledge in a way that conforms to what we would call "understanding". Perhaps Neo actually did know Kung Fu after the download. Perhaps the program actually instilled in his neurons Kung Fu encoding. There are several problems.

First of all, if technology like that was available, it would not be practical to learn Kung Fu. In the "suspended disbelief" universe of film-making, anything can be made to seem practical, but there is no scenario where Kung Fu would actually be a viable way to combat a machine like Neo was up against.

So, he would be learning a useless skill. Since he would not have gone through the lifetime of training that typically goes into becoming a martial arts master, there could be no associated pride. So, there would be no sense of accomplishment that went with his mastery of the art. It would just be a useless skill filling up part of his biological brain that carried with it none of the legitimacy of years of hard work and sacrifice.

It has been demomstrated that when AI learns to translate between countless languages, it is actually translating them through a language it has developed on its own that contains vector representations of meaning devoid of specific vocabulary. It is not clear that a person's biological brain is capable of thinking that way. However, that is just the beginning. When machines begin to take over difficult mathematics and advance it to previously unimagined levels, they will certainly begin to encode it into a language of the their own that the biological component of human brains certainly is incapable of processing. Anyone who has studied higher mathematics has some notion of what I am describing. Great mathematicians already reach levels of understanding that most humans find bizarre and incomprehensible. Machines would raise that bar by many levels of magnitude.

The human component of a human-machine hybrid would never have the slightest idea what was actually being done. The best the machine component could do is find some dumbed-down way of representing the knowledge to the human component, comparable to what writers of popular science do with quantum mechanics when they are explaining it to non physicists. Eventually, the disparity between what the machine is doing and what the human component is receiving would be comparable to the scene in Red Dwarf when it is finally explained to Cat that a portal into the past is a "magic door".

So, the human component would have no actual understanding and the human would have no pride in how they achieved a "Cat" level of understanding of what is actually being done. A lot of the brain space that humans typically devote to understanding and enjoying the environment around them would be filled up with useless junk so that they can go around spouting that they have participated in the process of developing and understanding a "magic door".

Suppose machines are eventually able to develop something comparable to an actual magic door that makes it possible for a human to step into another time or dimension. The humans would understand that it is not magic. They would know that it is science. If they fill their brains with useless and actually incorrect information pertaining to how the door actually works they may miss out on the very human experience of stepping through the door into another time or dimension. Why ruin a good buzz with a bunch of useless and actually incorrect information?

I just do not see the point of attempting to merge with the machines. It is a useless exercise.

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7/18/2019, 1:06 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
spud100 Profile
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Heh! See the Nature/Independent article I provided. However, the soldiers of future may wish to download combat skills, like neo did.

Something more practical than jujitsu. Like weapons handling and artillery control.
7/18/2019, 2:07 pm Link to this post PM spud100 Blog
 
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Something more practical than jujitsu. Like weapons handling and artillery control.


I submit that a deep learning algorithm could already do those things better than any human. I am not saying that it is time to take humans out of the loop, but at most, they would have a supervisory role.

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7/18/2019, 4:15 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
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Neo does say “I know Kung-Fu” so one could take that to mean that, in the context of the movie, Neo does indeed know Kung-Fu.

But, then again, if Neo really did know Kung Fu he should have been able to rely on such skills in any situation that called for them. This is not what happens. Recall, for instance, the confrontation between Neo and Blaine (was that his name? I mean the guy who is really Agent Smith). We don’t see Neo defending himself nor do we see Trinity coming at Blaine like a Shaolin Master. Well, why not? She knows Kung Fu too, after all she takes on several guys at once inside the Matrix. I understand she cannot do any physics-defying stuff outside of the Matrix but if she knows many martial arts (I think we can assume they all had the same multi-martial arts package downloaded, given the variety of fighting styles all the characters demonstrate) she should be able to do a better job of defending herself.

[sign in to see URL] she and Neo only ‘know’ Martial Arts to the extent that somebody who is ace at Street Fighter is an expert. Yeah, they can make their Ryu avatar fly around the screen taking down anyone and everyone, but away from the videogame they have no skill. Similarly, Neo and the rest can make their avatars move like they know Kung Fu, but they themselves are no experts.

Anyway, back to the topic:) I think Spiko is right to point out differences between machine intelligence and human intelligence. I have noticed such differences too. When machines are taught to recognise objects they are shown thousands and thousands of examples. No human could digest so much information. But on the other hand humans don’t need to be shown so many examples of something before they can identify it. Show somebody who knows no Pokemon a picture of Pichaku and thereafter they will be able to identify Pikachu no matter what angle it is drawn from. And their ability to recognise Pikachu won’t be thwarted by tiny details like a few pixels out of place. In fact they won’t even notice any difference between these two pictures. But machine vision is flummoxed by such details.

So perhaps a merger is useless in the sense that it is futile to try and bring humans and machines together until they are one. There is a fundamental difference that means we can get so close but no closer.

But even if that turns out to be true it may still be worth developing some kind of symbiosis between humans and machines whereby the strengths and weaknesses of both intelligences work in complementary ways to produce something that is greater than what can be achieved by humans or machines working alone. I think we see something like this in modern films. We have special effects that nobody could produce without computer-aided assistance, and we have humans bringing emotions to the story that machines could not, having never lived a human life.

This symbiotic relationship between humans and machines would be perfectly compatible with Andy Clarke’s and David Chalmer’s extended cognition model of human intelligence, which holds that our environment plays an active role in driving cognitive processes, and that this role becomes increasingly active as more tech that can adapt to our requirements becomes available.
7/19/2019, 3:11 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 
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The fighting between people and "agent people" all took place inside the Matrix.

The only "outside the Matrix" fighting takes place in Zion, and between ships that are fighting drones in tunnels, and in the final scene where "blind" Neo and Trinity interact with the giant "mech-entity-node."

In the climactic scene, Neo is acting both inside and outside of the Matrix, somehow, even though he aint hooked up to it.

Ah - heck - "anything can go" in a movie.

We dont know if they'll be able to create my dream of a teaching machine, that will actually be able to almost effortlessly reward a person with reams of "unearned" facts - and also the grasp of them that we only get today by working through the ideas, often with the help of others. Over long periods of time - years.

Maybe no real advances will continue to the amazing places sci fi takes us. All the way past the kind of learning I just described, to complex muscular coordination with the mind regarding trained reflexes and new instincts?

As Spud notes, we probably are already there, or somewhere on track to there, already, with a very limited application of this. The control of a weapons console.

The "teaching machine" I've dreamed of for decades would be a big help for retraining the many in the US, and other developed nations who keep getting displaced by this trade agreement, that recession, or a given tech development.

And what great help it would be for many billions of other people! The billions around the world who are struggling to find a living as the whole globe is transitioning out of world where less "book larnin' is needed."

7/19/2019, 7:35 am Link to this post PM greendocnowciv Blog
 
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Re: Elon Musk’s Neuralink: Ready for Brain Surgery


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But even if that turns out to be true it may still be worth developing some kind of symbiosis between humans and machines whereby the strengths and weaknesses of both intelligences work in complementary ways to produce something that is greater than what can be achieved by humans or machines working alone.


That might work for the first ten minutes after AI achieves human level results. However, after iteration A, the machines will go through iteration B, C, [sign in to see URL], Y, Z,...and on beyond zebra. Somewhere around iteration C or D, it will become impossible for the human to relate in any way to what the machine is doing. Around Iteration F or G, the human will just be in the way.

However, when the machines get further along in the alphabet, humans may not even be able to accept the results. The machines may start describing acausal phenomena and their implications in ways that actually do sound like magic and humans may simply have to accept the results.

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7/19/2019, 10:00 am Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 


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