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Gr33n Daem0n Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


 I remember some of the examples and analogies while lurking on the KAI forum, by yourself and others. (or myself)
Like, a starfish being cut in half, then growing two starfish.
A rebuttal to this was, (if I remember correctly) that one starfish is technically the original, because of the way this division mechanism works.

But that's a flaw in the starfish analogy, not the idea itself.

Like, if a person stepped into a chamber and was disassembled, then reassembled in another pod using the same matter. But then, what if that matter were binned into storage, then you zapped a bunch of inanimate objects to equal your matter, mixed them homogeneously with "yours", then reassembled two copies of you out of the other pod..
Which is you? Both are equally "you" in every way.

Humans aren't wired to ponder at things like this, me thinx.

Last edited by Gr33n Daem0n, 12/6/2018, 12:07 pm
12/6/2018, 12:00 pm Link to this post PM Gr33n Daem0n Blog
 
Spikosauropod Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


I equate the "ship of Theseus" process to replacing the molecules of sugar in a birthday cake with molecules of salt.

If you replace the molecules of sugar in a birthday cake with molecules of salt, one by one, will you still have the same cake when you are done?

Hell no!

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Hail Apostle Paul
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Glory to the Objects
12/6/2018, 1:41 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
greendocnowciv Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


Only "Hell No" if ya leave it at molecular manufacture at the salt and sugar levels.

"Hell Yes" if ya use atomic level manufacture.

The switch-out of particles, or much larger fake neurons for "naturals," is a real poser. We have to try it to see if it works.

Some old codger in his rest home, nobody visiting him for years, treated like a pile of old newspaper by the woist staff his insurance can get away with paying for...

He, and actually many much younger would volunteer to try it - I have zero doubt.
12/6/2018, 3:33 pm Link to this post PM greendocnowciv Blog
 
luciddream00 Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


I think there is a pretty significant difference between cryonics used on an otherwise healthy person compared to cryonics used on someone who is terminal or very recently deceased. I wouldn't even consider cryonics as a healthy person unless it was proven and reliable, but if I was old and/or sickly then I'd very seriously consider one of those plans that includes a heart rate monitor and a team to retrieve your body and freeze it if you suddenly drop dead just on the off chance that it works.

By the way, if anyone is interested in a fun and funny series of novels that involve cryonics, mind uploading and singularity themes you should check out the ]Bobiverse series.
12/6/2018, 4:36 pm Link to this post PM luciddream00 Blog
 
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


I doubt an AI would have these types of hangups.
It might have a few racks of chips running itself. Then it could create redundant processing by running some in parallel, then shut one down and replace it with an upgraded version. (and refurbish / recycle material from the chip to use in the new if it felt like it) Eventually it'd have replaced them all, multiple times over.

But would it feel the need for this? I doubt it.. Like the example Extropia gave, the result is the same...

 Hopefully, the entities that eventually revive humans from Cryo, would be considerate to the feelings of the meatbags they're working with.
Cryo folks might want to specify their wishes to hold off.

The ability to just try to upload, would likely come long before any sort of molecular manufacture replacement is possible.

But then, Super Intelligent AI might just power through all of this in short order too. So even though they're technologically far apart, they'd both be doable one right after the other.
12/6/2018, 5:09 pm Link to this post PM Gr33n Daem0n Blog
 
Spikosauropod Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


quote:

Like the example Extropia gave, the result is the same...


One expedient will lead to the next until all semblance of the original form is lost, along with every rationalization that the original "mind" was ever copied. It will be like the funeral for Chuck Noland.

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Hail Apostle Paul
Praise to Founder Bunny
Glory to the Objects
12/6/2018, 6:20 pm Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
Extropia DaSilva Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


Which is you? Both are equally "you" in every way.

Maybe we can make a crude comparison to what happens when an amoeba reproduces. It does so a-sexually, by splitting itself into two. So now we have two amoebas were before there was only one.

But which one is the ‘original’? Is it this one on the left, or this one on the right? Genetically, they are identical [sign in to see URL] is it?

Biologists say that neither cell is the ‘original’. Rather, these are daughter cells. We might say the same of people created in the uploading or teleported process. That was not Captain Kirk himself who stepped off of the transporter, it was a relative of his. The relative may have been closer to the original Kirk than any son or twin could hope to be, being as it was an atomically-precise copy, but it was still not the original, strictly-speaking.

‘Which of these copies is you?’, is the best argument against uploading as a means of continuing one’s own survival. Personally I would not mind there being such a close relative of my primary cuz such a person would obviously be as good at maintaining my online presence.
12/7/2018, 7:04 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


If, over the course of years, a person dispenses with items of clothing and purchases new ones, in twenty years it will be the same person.

However, if they give the clothing to a second hand store and a stranger buys them one at a time until they are ultimately dressed as the original person was, the stranger will not be the original person.

I call this the "Theseus isn't here any more" model of why uploading will never work.

---
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Hail Apostle Paul
Praise to Founder Bunny
Glory to the Objects
12/7/2018, 10:22 am Link to this post PM Spikosauropod
 
Gr33n Daem0n Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


I always thought of the transporter in Star Trek to be a disassemble / reassemble type of thing. Or, matter-> energy->matter, all confined to a force field that reassembles the object.
There was a novel that used the laws of conservation of energy being broken, to claim that *Thomas Riker was technically from a parallel dimension.

Of course, the energy total would probably have to be boosted slightly every time by the ship, any time a person beamed.. and you could figure it'd be capable of subsidizing any amount lost to reform the person in total, so they could probably both have been reformed from the original pattern.. But whatever, tis a novel.

*Thomas Riker was the second Riker, that formed when the transporter beam split, and bounced back to the surface of a planet that Riker was being rescued from, while Will Riker was rescued. So "Thomas" was stranded on the planet for years, from a time when he was still in a relationship with Troi...

Well, I got to Ship of Theseus here from my childhood. I wouldn't mind doing it to somewhere else. Then there's the option of just doing it all at once, and being done with it.

I think a brain renovation of a person would involve the same sort of disassemble / reassemble too, so over time it'd all have been reshuffled up and replaced anyway. Tis only a matter of time.

We're all screwed eventually, if that's what defines us.

Last edited by Gr33n Daem0n, 12/7/2018, 5:06 pm
12/7/2018, 12:02 pm Link to this post PM Gr33n Daem0n Blog
 
Extropia DaSilva Profile
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Re: Is anyone here considering Cryonics?


>If, over the course of years, a person dispenses with items of clothing and purchases new ones, in twenty years it will be the same person.<

In a legal sense, maybe. But for this to be literally ‘the same person’ they must have experienced no physical or mental change whatsoever. This is not possible. Really, this is a different person.

Your stranger buys the clothes is invalid with regard to a gradual ‘ship of thesus’ type upload. That ‘salt instead of sugar’ example was interesting, though. There have been examples where very small parts of a brain have been replaced with bionic parts without ‘losing’ the mind. It could be that replacing 100% would not lose it either. Or it could be akin to replacing less than 1% of the sugar with salt (won’t notice the difference) versus 100% replacement (definitely not the cake I was expecting).

12/8/2018, 5:25 am Link to this post PM Extropia DaSilva Blog
 


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